Curse

jcapulet · Mar 15, 2007, 04:56 PM // 16:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

I hate the idea that certain skills get killed for one type of gameplay to better suit the other. That's a weakness in the system.

Those are my thoughts as well. If there are PvE-only skills, I think that's a good start. It would be nice to have PvE-only skills that won't likely get nerfed due to imbalances in PvP.

And hopefully, they'll also have PvP-only skills for the PvP'ers.

Mad King Corn · Mar 15, 2007, 05:15 PM // 17:15

It's clear to me that Anet needs to do something. If this will allow PVE to finally get decent skills then I am all for it, but I would prefer that they set up a system where PVE and PVP skills are set up in a way that allows them to have seperate stats depending on if a player is using PVP or PVE. There would be balance in PVP and PVE players could finally use their favorite skills again without worring about nerfing, everyone could be happy.

Carinae · Mar 15, 2007, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

On one hand, I'd be disappointed that ANet lost control of the balance between a skill in PvE and PvP enough that they had to introduce more PvE-only skills. It just shows that the structure of PvE is being abominated.

Well said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

I don't like the idea. Odds are these skills are going to be overpowered compared to normal skills and not taking them on your bar will be foolish. More cookie-cutter templates will be born; endless joy. I love the lack of creativity there already is within the PvE world.

Not only that, but since PvE isn't competitive, there's no real 'balance' to worry about is there? If they introduce more PvE specific skills, or even split the skill lines, then expect PvE to stagnate and die. We will never get another skill update/rebalance again and that would be terrible. Everything would be reduced to one or two cookie-cutter templates and that would be it. No build variety in PvE what-so-ever, just a single build for each situation.

Grand Court -> Run this.

Power Farming -> Run that.

I'm a hard-core PvE player, 22 points short of Bambi, and I am personally very grateful that Anet takes PvP so seriously and constantly updates skills. I simply DON'T CARE if that inconveniences a farmer or two. They will adapt...or someone else will. ALL farming nerfs are transient blips and get resolved with creative thinking.....which I like, because it stimulates thought and creativity all around.

So "NO" to any more PvE specific skills. We have too many right now.

Kha · Mar 15, 2007, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

I don't like the idea. Odds are these skills are going to be overpowered compared to normal skills and not taking them on your bar will be foolish. More cookie-cutter templates will be born; endless joy. I love the lack of creativity there already is within the PvE world.

It's just how things work. There can't really be a true comparison to the game mechanics of PvP and PvE, and therefore trying to keep the skills balanced between the two obviously causes way too many problems. There's a lack of creativity in PvE because generally once something is found to be successful, what's the motivation to work it out even more? Quicker time maybe, which can lead to more loot, but not everyone plays just to be rich and show off.

Not everyone cares about creating new builds. Some just play to explore and escape from the real world. And since the skills change over and over to mostly balance out PvP, not everyone wants to deal with the time of figuring out new builds, so they just copy what others use. Not all players are like this though, and not everyone copies other builds even if they seem to be using a popular build. To think that only one person or group of people can think of each build is kind of foolish. Some are pretty specific, true, but anyone with a decent amount of knowledge of the game mechanics and skills can see what works and what won't, and thus develop at least the basic structure to many of the more famous builds.

If the odds are 'right' and these are overpowered skills, then it will just be another lame addition to PvE. It already is easy enough (besides the elite parts which are 'elite' for a reason) and we definitely don't need more stupid stuff like Lightbringer's Gaze in the game. If it's mission specific skills, then that would be cool and not provide pathetic grind just so others can feel superior to the rest of the players. I think making the missions feel more unique with more PvE skills this way will help the game, not harm it.

dargon · Mar 15, 2007, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

Really?

Since PvP and PvE are entirely different playing styles and use totally different builds, it is already that way. PvE skills won't make that new...it's been that way from the start.

Style of play is different yes, but the same build can work in both, for example, shock axe, burning arrow ranger, infuse monk, etc. Now I'm not saying that every build can transfer between the two, but most builds can with a few minor tweaks.

DreamRunner · Mar 15, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

Really?

Since PvP and PvE are entirely different playing styles and use totally different builds, it is already that way. PvE skills won't make that new...it's been that way from the start.

Then, why try to limit it? I don't understand why you would want to limit the concept of using builds. Its a stupid idea and it will make Guild Wars a worse game. And you know, they're are skills that are used in PvE, as well as PvP. It isnt just one or the other at the moment, there is holes between, skill can go through pvp side and pve area.

Obey The Cat · Mar 15, 2007, 05:41 PM // 17:41

By playing adh you have to defeat different groups with different skills. Why not in pve too?

PVE would be great if mobs had 8 skills on their bar (with ressurection skills) or just more health instead of double damage... or random skill sets.

I loved beating Coventina the Matron (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Coventina_the_Matron) in Prophecies. You had to set up skills which can make you kill an uber monk boss. That's fun. To die cause of double damage from a factions ele boss is not that funny.

In PVP it's hard to kill someone, in PVE it's easy - even easier with skills like lightbringers gaze.

C2K · Mar 15, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

If PvE skills are long the lines of skills that weave the story together, then fine, add a few in.(See Celestial skills in Factions, Lightbringer skills in Nightfall)

Other than that, I think its a horrible idea. I haven't really said much about the rumored CH4(because until I see officialness, its a rumor), but to hear that 1/3 of the skills offered in the game will be PvE only would be rather disappointing. I can only hope its false because it seems from what is rumored that CH4 will be all pve and, unless any of those other skills are ridiculously good, its nothing someone who enjoys the pvp aspect of the game would bother with. But until official word is given, I leave that can of worms at that.

Also, if you think its hard for people to transition from pve to pvp now, try it if pve had their own skill set. PvEers would not be able to take their "Armageddon Storm", "Minor Cataclysm", "Divine Immunity", or "<place your most uber pve-only skill here>" into a pvp situation. Keeping the skillssimiliar in both access makes transitions easier and the learning curve not too steep.

Racthoh · Mar 15, 2007, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kha

If the odds are 'right' and these are overpowered skills, then it will just be another lame addition to PvE. It already is easy enough (besides the elite parts which are 'elite' for a reason) and we definitely don't need more stupid stuff like Lightbringer's Gaze in the game. If it's mission specific skills, then that would be cool and not provide pathetic grind just so others can feel superior to the rest of the players. I think making the missions feel more unique with more PvE skills this way will help the game, not harm it.

The skills can probably fall into a few categories; overpowered, mission, or perhaps monster specific which is why they would be limited to PvE. However, each area has its flaws.

If you make overpowered skills, it means Anet can make the enemies even more annoying than the ones in DoA with that annoying Enraged skill (I haven't gone back in there since being hit for over 100 damage with a Cry of Frustration, that place just isn't fun). In order to beat area X, you're going to need PvE only skill X or you're just putting more strain on yourself. Rather than giving enemies a full skill bar, mixed professions, and level curve = more damage jargon the understanding is that stupidly tough enemies makes a challenging area. Overpowered skills will either make PvE even easier, or turn difficult situations into something moderately tough. But if they skills don't do one of those two things, then why wouldn't they be usable in PvP if they aren't groundbreaking?

Mission only skills annoyed me personally. Venta Cemetary's disarm trap skill is easily interrupted even though it doesn't say it is. Play as a melee class with heroes/henchmen who usually runs into the group first and you'll never get the thing off until everything is dead. The vial of holy water hex from Nundu Bay has a two second cast and the harbringer's have Distracting Blow. 15 seconds later of pounding the thing for 0 damage before you can use the hex again. It's not difficult by any means, just frustrating and unnecessary. Either give me an NPC that uses the super-skill or give me Claim Resource for all of those other missions.

The only other PvE skill I could think of would be ones with additional effects vs. a specific monster type. The immediate thought that comes to mind is farming abuse. I do recall players forming Lightbringer's Gaze farming groups that would run around the RoT blasting everything with a 321 gaze spike for hundreds of AoE damage. And monsters were made to flee AoE because that made PvE/farming too easy.

jcapulet · Mar 15, 2007, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

And you know, they're are skills that are used in PvE, as well as PvP. It isnt just one or the other at the moment, there is holes between, skill can go through pvp side and pve area.

Okay, but do you think a skill balance affects PvP players the same way it would affect PvE players? IMO, it's different because PvP and PvE builds are quite different.

A skill balance for "skill xyz" may be nice and fair for PvP players. PvE players, (who are using skill xyz differently than PvP players would), are then affected by the same nerf...and they had nothing to do with it.

If it was imbalanced in PvE...I'd have no problem with it. If it was imbalanced in PvP and, as a result, the skill balance affected my PvE build(s), that's not cool. That's why I support the concept of having some PvE-only skills (as well as PvP-only skills).

On the other side of the coin, I wouldn't think it fair to balance a skill because it was overpowered in PvE. That wouldn't be fair to the PvP players. But, that would never happen, would it?

Shmanka · Mar 15, 2007, 06:34 PM // 18:34

If they do this (I know it was already mentioned) it is just the red flag Anet has put up, and there are better ways for this to happen. The lightbringer titles and skills truly annoy me, so unless I farm my rear end off for EACH profession they are not effective in PvE and it contributes nothing to PvP where I use my PvE characters mainly to begin with.

It's just a fork in the road, and dead end signs for each side.

Croix_Raul · Mar 15, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Personally i am supportive toward the PvE only skill set since its don't bare the bunt of nerf bat ever so often.

Just look at PvP skill set every once in a while people screaming omg nerf wtf etc all the template build scrap and back to the drawing board its get annoying and getting really old.

Personally if possible i rather have FoW UW doesn't follow the the current favor system which i find is stupid one can't access a PvE area due to the fact whichever country doesn't have favor resulted from PvP.

It not like we have all day to sit around the chair 24/7 to play guildwars you know.Some of us have a real life ,work and bills to pay and gaming is a form of get away.We only get like a minor 1-2hr to play and waiting for favor is not fun. Personally i don't like playing pvp in guildwars and never will play much again.Reason is simple each game take too much time planning and tactic involve not to mention having TS/Vent as a must have so the team perform better (other then the annoying person barking at you.)

During winters day most adults around rather spend christmas outside with a couple of friend and be spoiled with a wonderful dinner and beer(This refer to adult lifestyle)then stay at home to play guildwars (Well most adult anyway, there are exceptional cases)Snowball fights are interesting PvP i wish they just leave it around so people can access it all the time and not event only kind of thing.

For my PvP fun I rather have my FPS game or Warcraft 3 Dota at least thats balanced and doesn't take forever to setup just to play.Most adult doesn't waste want too much time to get hookup to have some PvP fun.PvE is a different story since monster are very much straight forward.

PvE only skill will only make it more straight forward and a much needed balance on some classes that have been labeled a bane in PvE which anet can't allow them to have certain PvP skill as its unbalancing(If you want some Challenge there hard mode and DoA for that go knock yourself out)
I am sure PvE only skill will only make it easiler to pick up the game and make the game more enjoyable then it current state.Since PvE content is design in a way that you will win one way or the other i really don't see the problem.

As for those playing PvE who want to do PvP in guildwars who can't bring those PvE only skill please grow up and learn how to play, that what PvP about.If you have problem adapting here i rather not have you on my team.Beside what work in PvE don't quite work in PvP they still have to start from scratch one way or the other.i rather have Quality then Quantity

As for the PvE only skill Lightbringer Graze i personally dislike the design as its a grind base skill i rather have class attribute kind of PvE only skill then ones like Lightbringer Graze (grind base skill )

The Last Anthem · Mar 15, 2007, 07:01 PM // 19:01

personally I wouldn't mind pve'rs getting pve only skills..It doesn't effect pvp'rs at all. I think that if anet is going to put in pve only skills they should balance them out with other skills and not give the player any special advantage for having a higher ranking in a certain title (aka lightbringer). The sunspear idea was nice, rebirth sig ftw and it doesn't really give any special advantage and very easy to get.
maybe anet should implement pvp only skills

ok that would just be plain stupid..nevermind.

Pynne · Mar 15, 2007, 07:09 PM // 19:09

I love LB gaze! It's a godsend for unskilled idiots like me. I would welcome more skills like that, that help a casual gamer get through the tougher areas a little faster.

FoxBat · Mar 15, 2007, 07:12 PM // 19:12

I really doubt we are going to see 50 of them like that inquirer article implied (but we will know for sure soon), but anyway... if there are any at all, their effectiveness will probably be tied to some title, faction, or something else. Much like lightbringer, it's a way to try and add "levels" to guild wars PvE, so your character actually becomes increasingly effective as you build them, while having no effect on PvP and (as the nightfall skills are) not overpowering you in any previous or future campaigns.

GloryFox · Mar 15, 2007, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre
On one hand, I'd be disappointed that ANet lost control of the balance between a skill in PvE and PvP enough that they had to introduce more PvE-only skills. It just shows that the structure of PvE is being abominated.

I disagree

The value of PvE is in the experience. Many skills and builds got over nerfed simply because they don't work in a PvP environment. Skill such as EoE and Ritual Lord and half the communing Ritualist skills, not to mention the entire Motivation attribute for Paragons were simply killed because of bad PvP team build addictions.

Having only some skills that work for PvP will re introduce balance where a balanced build will seem more viable.

Having only some skills that work for Pve will re introduce the enjoyment of the experience.

NOTE: this is not a rant vs PvP (I enjoy PvP) its a simple fact that PvP is killing the PvE experience.

If Anet is making PvE only skills and limiting the PvP skill I say "Its about time."

lacasner · Mar 15, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

I kind of agree that they should, pvp and pve should be more seperate in this game, even in perhaps more ways than skill wise.

The Ernada · Mar 15, 2007, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

I would guess that on average PvE players would want it and PvP players don't.

But what is the problem anyway? Are PvP players so jealous that they can't use certain skills even if they would ruin PvP and so they rather not see PVE players use them? Childish...

Umm where are these PVP players that are "so jealous" that they're opposing this? From what I see, the ones opposing this are also PVE players or at least hybrid players. Purely PVP players dont give a crap if PVE gets PVE only skills. Stop making generalizations and flamebait. Childish....

Anyway, if PVE skills are introduced there really should only be a handful of them. Except that they'd probably encourage cookie cutters builds (as others have mentioned)

But my opinion has always been that it's not the skills that make PVE stagnant like so many of you claim, but it's the PVE itself. PVE is either a mindless chore of just clicking skills until the monsters are dead over and over again and any "challenge" in PVE comes from brute force (i.e. DOA) and not from any real intelligence from the A.I. and mob builds.

Unfortunately, seems like too many people prefer the mindless mass killing of monsters. Hence why so many like mindless farming as well. So I dont expect PVE to improve and I dont expect any PVE only skills to make things any better in the long run.

lacasner · Mar 15, 2007, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Ernada

But my opinion has always been that it's not the skills that make PVE stagnant like so many of you claim, but it's the PVE itself. PVE is either a mindless chore of just clicking skills until the monsters are dead over and over again and any "challenge" in PVE comes from brute force (i.e. DOA) and not from any real intelligence from the A.I. and mob builds.

Unfortunately, seems like too many people prefer the mindless mass killing of monsters. Hence why so many like mindless farming as well. So I dont expect PVE to improve and I dont expect any PVE only skills to make things any better in the long run.

I pretty much agree with all of this, except for a few points. You hit the nail on the coffin, that pve is mostly a mindless chore of just clicking skills over and over again mob after mob, but this isnt the part that makes pve stagnant amazingly. I think that for most players, and I guess myself, just doing a mission for completing the storyline isn't enough justification to do it, thats not what we look for in a mmorpg type game.I think if Anet can provide more incentives for PvE, maybe some new levels or more barometers of accomplishment not including titles, it would be good enough to divide PvE and PvP and many less conflicts would occur. Just my opinion anyway

.

Obey The Cat · Mar 15, 2007, 07:35 PM // 19:35

I would highly prefer changes to current skills to make them useful in pve over any new pve only skill which will just be overpowered.